Tattoos, tattoos...

[kseenaa]

Wooo.... Yet another post so shortly after the last one... This will never end well... ;-)

Anyway. But as soon as a fandom goes rampant, I kinda have to post about it. Either because I am amused or because it annoys me. This time? It mostly amuses me. :-) *grabs popcorn*

And before I continue, yes... This will be about Bills tattoo and tattoos in general. You don't like tattoos? That is PERFECTLY fine! You don't like Bills tattoo? That is PERFECTLY fine to. :-) Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

As you who have been around here a while probably know, I have five tattoos myself, planning two more as soon as I can afford them. (When I get enough cash for them which might take a long time yet...) I love tattoos. I think it is really sexy and/or a way to express oneself.

If you don't know what my tattoos look like, you can check this post: Right HERE when my latest was brand new. Might add, I am a librarian. I have a lip-piercing and plenty piercings in my ears to. Have this been a hindrance in getting a job? No. At least not what I have noticed. Strangely, the opposite, since most librarians I have talked to have said there needs to be variety in all lines of work.

I've been to the hospital and had doctors that are traditional muslims with special hijabs, jews with that little kippah and also those with tattoos and piercings. So... Why not a librarian, right?

Currently those tattoos I have are easy to hide. They are on my upper arms and my lower legs and my back. They aren't really visible half the year. Only during spring and summer. The new tattoos though that I plan to make are for my lower arms, so they'll be visible at all times. Yes, I've talked with a few colleagues about it, and I've yet to get more then one negative comment about it (she retired a month ago).

What I am trying to say is, if I had money... I'd be near to covered in tattoos by now. No kidding. I have soooo many ideas for tattoos for my body, you wouldn't believe. All of them with special meaning for me.

And there's the keyword right there. Tattoos with special meaning.

Yeah, I think my tattoos look cool. And I make sure to find tattoo-artists that are really good artists and know what the fuck they are doing. But all, every single one have meaning FOR ME! (Yes, even Uncle Scrooge on my back...)

Now Bill Kaulitz has done a pretty radical tattoo. A hand-tattoo, a glove if you will. It is very radical. Making a small tattoo on my hand, yeah... I'd like that. And probably will in the future. But I am just a regular Joe, so to speak. Having a big hand-tattoo would hurt my career, sadly. Regular ones, no problem.

Bill Kaulitz though don't have that problem. And considering how the fandom wanks like fuck right now, I'd say it more helps him. No matter if fans hate it, or like it... They sure talk about it, don't they?

The tattoo in question:


Copyright to Bill Kaulitz, his tattoo-artist and BTKtwins.Com.

And I do believe there is a meaning behind that tattoo. The motives are very classical. The swallow... the lily... and the bones. No new motives. They've been around for... well, years and years. And looking at Bills old tattoos, there are clearly meanings behind every single one. Even the one he did when he was just a little kid. More then just being a symbol for the band.

Oh, and then there are those fans that are going into rage that Bill is destroying himself! Even commenting saying such things on that App. Dude... Whatever he does, even if he ends up as covered as Nikki Sixx (photo) and Tommy Lee (photo), it is HIS DECISION! And only his.

I know for one that I can get a bit annoyed when people question my tattoos and piercings. And to get it thrown at your face... Yeah. Not cool, you fans. You wanna wank about it? Do so in your journals, in your Tumblrs, on your Twitter. Hell, write fanfic about it to get it out, whatever... But don't write it in the app. For gawds sake. The twins are reaching out a hand (no pun intended) and try to communicate with their fans. Be cool and respect that, yeah? Do not post about how they destroy themselfs and how they surely fuck each other since you are such a hardcore twincester... (Yes, I've seen comments on that subject too on said app. Disgusting.)

Yes, I am ranting, I know. And this post is all over the place.

But in conclusion? I like the tattoo. It look really really nice. No wonder. Los Angeles, USA has some of the best tattoo-artists in the world. I'd sell a leg to get a tattoo from one of them, seriously... The detail-work on Bills tattoo is quite amazing, especially considering it is on the hand. It is NOT easy to get detail like that on a hand. Also, it must have hurt like a motherfucker considering there is not much subcutaneous fat on your hand. The bone is RIGHT under the skin. So you think his hand look fat? Dude... It is probably still swollen... And will most likely be for a while more.

Not a Bill-girl, as you all know. He is not my favorite in the band (least favorite, more like). BUT! I do admire his attitude and his bravery to do whatever the fuck he wants no matter what people tell him. :-)

So, Bill?

ROCK THE FUCK ON, DEAR BOY!

It looks good. :-) And those that just like you for your looks? Well... :-) They'll find another girly boy to look at, I am sure. ;-)

Comments

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

Even the IDEA that twincest might be real..... I am sorry, but that just makes me shiver in disgust. Yes, I know. There are few twins that have experimented together, but really? With your own BROTHER? No... Just HELL no. Keep such things in fanfic and keep it there, thank you.

I do believe though that them boys are well aware of what many of their fans write, and play it up for them on stage and during interviews etc. But if it is real? Hell no. I HIGHLY doubt it. Twins are damn close as it is, no need to draw in sex in the mix.

Incest happen. And it is NEVER romantic. NEVER fluffy. AND could NEVER be right. Not in my book. Hell no. Fine if you think so, but me? Fuck no. Stumbled upon a pair of twins who make porn together, and that just... ewww... Fine for them, apparently, but I just got really fucking uncomfortable and disgusted by it.

That doesn't mean though that I'll go throw that in those porn-twins face! I just avoid them. Like the plague. No comments. No nothing.

If it ever came out that the twincest between Bill and Tom would be real? I'd have to take a HUGE fucking step back from the fandom and just... Not be part of it in a looong time, because I'd be so, so disappointed there would be no words for it. They'd definitely lose me as a fan. Easily.

[tinie.livejournal.com]

Incest happen. And it is NEVER romantic. NEVER fluffy. AND could NEVER be right.

If incest happens and it's shameful and bad and something the ones involved wished had never happened, I am sure that hateful comments don't help the feeling of self-worth along. That was the point I was trying to make...

I fully respect your feeling regarding incest that those involved choose to let happen. And I deeply appreciate your stand to stay away from it, rather than showering it with hateful comments. (I don't appreciate the porn twins either, I feel very sorry for them. Or are they just clever businessmen??).

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

I have to wonder.... And I ask you, since you very clearly is positive to the thought of twincest being real... If there were a set of twins (fraternal twins) that were famous.... and it was a woman and a man looking very much alike (that happens with fraternal twins to)... and they had consensual sex... Would you feel the same way then? In such a relationship, there could be children... And THAT would not end up well, we all know that... That is another reason why closely related people should NOT have sex... apart from all the other wrongs with such a scenario.

I have no wish to shower anyone with hateful comments. What would that serve? Seriously. I am way more mature then that, thank you. Unlike many of the insane girls on that freaking app. As I said, if twincest between Tom and Bill would prove real, I'd just leave. Disgusted, but quietly and sadly, but I would. And that would be the end of that.

It's not hard to find info on them porn twins. They are called Elijah and Milo Peters. I first saw photo shots with them (clothed) and they looked quite comfortable doing that. It wasn't anything worse then Tom and Bill has done. You know? Draped over one another, looking hot for the camera. But then I saw porn shots with them. And even though they acted all cool and comfortable in front of the camera... there was just something in their eyes, you know...? It didn't feel... good. Smart business men or not... I wonder what the real cost for all them money they pull in is....

[tinie.livejournal.com]

You say that I am clearly positive to the thought of twincest being real. It is not true, quite the opposite. Perhaps the mix of me writing twincest, my love for the twins, and my opinion that it shouldn't automatically be condemned makes it come across that way. I'm glad you asked, now I can try to explain my point.

In fanfic I can explore the dynamic I see between them (that exists regardless of twincest or not), and add a sexual relationship that complicates things, and adds spice (since I like drama, and slash). But what happens in fiction is fiction, and what I approve of there isn’t something I automatically approve of in real life. This is a fact I think applies to most readers of fiction (and I think you agree).

I'm not negative in the sense that if it became known Bill and Tom had had any kind of incest relationship (from non-consentual to highly consentual), I would leave fandom or blame them for it. But I wouldn't be positive. I would become extremely worried for them. I would have a thousand questions, and the most pressing ones would be – were any one of them against that incest relationship, but couldn’t get out? Did any one of them suffer? Did/do they both suffer? The next set of questions would regard them both: How are they? I wouldn’t wish the sadness and pain (from personal to societal) of an incest relationship on anyone. And I would wonder about the adults around them, what responsibility they have, etc., etc. And if it became known that any one of the twins had sexually or psychologically abused the other, I would be devastated (I still hope that I wouldn’t turn my back on them as persons; it would be a tragedy with two victims, and in that situation people need support by people who are able to say; “I disapprove your actions, but I support you as a person, and I will support your attempts to break that behavior.” I don’t know if I could, but I hope so).

There is also the question of consent. I have the opinion that if incest between adult siblings is 100 % consensual then there is no victim. Then it’s hard to automatically judge two adults (nota bene: adults) who interact sexually -- if there is absolutely no victim. If Bill and Tom agree 100 % to have sex, up to them. If an adult (nota bene: adult) sister and brother dyad agree 100 % to have sex, up to them.

But in an incest relationships the risk of abuse ( = victim) is so much bigger than in other kinds of relationships and the chance of mutual consent is so much lower. In the case where a sister and brother would have children, then both of them are perpetrators and the child is the victim, and a realtionship with a victim is totally unacceptable in my book. Even in a case where adult (note bene: adult) siblings would say that they are 100 % okay with it, I would always suspect that there is at least a 1 % lie. The "porn twins" are such an example, where both you and I have seen something in their eyes that tell us that their relationship is not healthy, and that there is probably not what can be called 100 % consent in their case (that is: they are both victims, in my way of reasoning).

Between child and parent, there can never be consent, and between child siblings there can never be consent. Children are not mentally and physically developed to make such a decision. And I find it hard to believe that it would be 100 % consent between adult siblings.

All these things taken together make it impossible for me to find the thought of (tw)incest real a positive one.

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

Well, I did get the impression that you thought twincest was real. :-) I am very glad I was mistaken.

I will however always always see it as something wrong. IF it happens between siblings of any kind in RL, they need help, consent or not. Because having sexual feelings for your sibling, is not normal... not OK. NO MATTER the circumstances. I did read about it somewhere (don't remember where now, of course... have tried to find it, I swear) about a psychologist who wrote about this mental disorder, a doctoral thesis even.

Incest of any kind is not right and very wrong, as I see.

Sadly, there are many, many fans who can't separate fanfic from reality. And that... makes me shudder in horror, quite frankly.

Fanfic is one thing. Reality a whole other story. And some fans... needs to learn that.

[tinie.livejournal.com]

Incest is an extremely pressing issue; it's more prevalent than what was assumed earlier; numbers are alarming, a prevalence of 10-20 % which is very, very high. To avoid misunderstandings and misconceptions that will not benefit anyone, I want to make clear that incest is not a mental disorder defined by any acclaimed diagnostic manual (DSM-IV, ICD 10).

There is a mental disorder called Pedophilic Disorder which could be assigned to the perpetrator if they fulfil this defintition: "a person 16 years of age or older meets the definition if they have a persistent or predominant sexual preference for prepubescent children at least five years younger than them". The diagnosis includes a specifyer for incest, if the the sexual preference is only incestous and not directed towards children outside the family.

To call "incest" a mental disorder leads the thoughts to the victim also having some kind of disturbance, and that is highly unfortunate. I would like to have a reference to the thesis you mention if you find it.

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

I didn't say I thought they were a mental disorder. ;-) I said the papers was written like that. I have tried to find it again, but I failed. Dammit. Hence the slow response. :-P

I think we are not quite on the same page on incest, BUT! We are not as far apart as one might first have thought. :-) I am not blaming those that do it. I say they need help. A LOT of help. No matter consent or not. And I got a feeling you don't quite agree with that.

ANYWAY! I wanna thank you for this discussion. :-) It has been interesting, eye-opening AND held in a very polite manner. :-) So thank you for that. I love discussions like this! :-D

And it is IS totally fine to agree do disagree. ;-) One can still be friends, you know? *smile*

[tinie.livejournal.com]

And it is IS totally fine to agree do disagree. ;-) One can still be friends, you know? *smile*

I totally agree! <3